[RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

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Kiwi
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[RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Kiwi » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:01 pm

Since the update to RVGL version 19.0819, I have some strange camera issues.
  • The camera is zooming more groundwards at some track areas. Examples are the area after the house at Skating Toys, or the conveyor area at Biohazard Factory. The camera movement is not caused by the placement of camera shorteners.
  • When you drive right beside a wall, the camera moves to a slightly different position, which was not the case before. An example are the tight areas between the houses at the Ghost Town tracks.
I guess this bug is related to the same issue, which caused the "teleporter bug" at Hull Breach 3000?
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by ZipperZbieracz » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:42 pm

Either I am doing something wrong, or I do not experience the problems in the point #1.

As for the #2, I see nothing extraordinary – camera works, at least from my experience, just like before.

Can you provide some video or at least a pic, how it looks on your end?
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Huki » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:49 am

Kiwi wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:01 pm
Since the update to RVGL version 19.0819, I have some strange camera issues.
  • The camera is zooming more groundwards at some track areas. Examples are the area after the house at Skating Toys, or the conveyor area at Biohazard Factory. The camera movement is not caused by the placement of camera shorteners.
  • When you drive right beside a wall, the camera moves to a slightly different position, which was not the case before. An example are the tight areas between the houses at the Ghost Town tracks.
The issues you mentioned can happen at high frame rates (i.e., when v-sync if off). The higher the frame rate, the worser it gets, although RVGL uses an internal cap of 250 fps.

Until 19.0430, a fix was used to better handle camera collisions at high frame rates. But the fix caused bad jittering, especially at lower frame rates, when the camera is resting against the wall. You can see that behavior in this video.

Because of this, the fix was reverted in 19.0819. If the current camera behavior is not acceptable, then I think our options are:
  • Switch back to 19.0430 behavior and keep the jittering. (or)
  • Reduce the internal cap to 125 fps.
Perhaps I can send you a test build with the 125 cap?
Kiwi wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:01 pm
I guess this bug is related to the same issue, which caused the "teleporter bug" at Hull Breach 3000?
Note that the "teleporter bug" in Hull Breach 3000 already used to happen in 19.0430 when v-sync is on (i.e., at lower frame rates). I'm guessing you have v-sync off and that's why you (and other players) hadn't noticed this before.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Kiwi » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:31 pm

I normally have v-sync OFF, because with v-sync ON I have some "stuttering" while playing, which is not the case when I switch v-sync OFF.

I can confirm, that in RVGL 19.0819 the strange camera behaviour is not here anymore, as soon I switch v-sync ON. But the gameplay is by far not as smooth as with v-sync OFF.

Here two examples:

Skating Toys - Low camera (@ second 7 onwards): https://streamable.com/iw5zj
Ghost Town 1 - Strange camera when near to a wall (@ second 5) https://streamable.com/okic8

Speaking for me, I had no issues with older RVGL versions (no jittering). Feel free to send me a test build with the 125 cap.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by ZipperZbieracz » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:20 pm

In the #1 the camera didn't go back up after it decreased its height because of driving under the bed. Should not happen, could maybe possibly happen in other places on other tracks too?

#2 the bendbent is bent visibly by too much

I will try to get higher fps and see if it happens to me too at ~600~800 fps, cuz at ~200 (skating) ~300 (gt1) fps camera works fine for me
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Kiwi » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:29 pm

ZipperZbieracz wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:20 pm
In the #1 the camera didn't go back up after it decreased its height because of driving under the bed. Should not happen, could maybe possibly happen in other places on other tracks too?
It happens also at other places. For example when driving underneath the cars at Hood1. I know that it is caused by this, but it wasn't the same at older RVGL versions for me. As soon I activate v-sync, the issues are gone.
ZipperZbieracz wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:20 pm
#2 the bendbent is bent visibly by too much
Yes, this "issue" is not really bad. I just wanted to bring it up, so Huki is aware of it. If it will stay the way it is now, I also have no problem with it. :)
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by ZipperZbieracz » Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:20 am

I can confirm that with higher FPS (~390 on Skating Toys, ~800 on TW1 and Hood1) I've been able to replicate both the low-camera bug as well as the bent-camera near a wall glitch, although this one only slightly, but still.

The low-camera bug seems to go away only and right when the camera is forced to change it's position after the car changes it's elevation (Y axis?) or spin relative to the ground (Z axis? whatever…).

The bent-camera-wall glitch obviously goes off when car is far enough from the wall. The glitch appears in the first place when car goes near a wall, goes away from it slightly and comes back near to it again, the camera shows the car more from a side, directing the camera more at the wall and side of the car (showing more of the side of a car that is opposite to the wall), can make it harder to properly direct the car.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Boban » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:32 am

Until that low-camera bug is fixed you can just tap rear view key to reset the camera position. I did that in Rooftops when it's counting down and when camera should get behind my car, it gets stuck so i tap rear view key and it gets there.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Huki » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:24 pm

Kiwi wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:31 pm
Speaking for me, I had no issues with older RVGL versions (no jittering). Feel free to send me a test build with the 125 cap.
The previous versions had an ugly jitter when the camera is resting against the wall.
This is a video from 19.0430: https://streamable.com/pksoj

Anyway, here are the test builds with the reduced internal frame rate cap and a few other fixes.
rvgl_19.0825a_test_win32.7z
rvgl_19.0825a_test_win64.7z
rvgl_19.0825a_test_linux.7z

Let me know both of your results with this.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Kiwi » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:07 pm

Thank you Huki. I've tested the test build (Windows x64) at Skating Toys, and at Botanical Garden.

The "low camera"-issue is gone. Also the slightly different camera position when driving beside a wall is gone. I also tested if I can reproduce the jitter you talked about, and I think it is still there. But I must say I never recognised this, before you mentioned it / showed a video of it. Are there any situations, where the jittering is really visible? Maybe at the end of a race when the camera is circeling around a car which have passed the finish line. But I can't imagine another situation? Only speaking for me: The camera issues I have talked about in my first post are much more annoying then the jittering...

Here the video with my Skating Toys test run (v-sync OFF) https://streamable.com/sw0pq

I also did a test-run at Botanical Garden, because I recognised some stuttering while driving at Skating Toys. The stuttering is also there when driving Botanical Garden. The stuttering feels nearly the same, as when I have vsync enabled.

I don't know if you can recognise it at the video I have captured (Also v-sync OFF):

https://streamable.com/6r6vm

I guess this has something to do with the internal 125 fps cap?

With older RVGL versions and v-sync OFF gameplay felt "smoother" for me, but maybe this is just a placebo effect.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Huki » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:56 am

Kiwi wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:07 pm
I also tested if I can reproduce the jitter you talked about, and I think it is still there. But I must say I never recognised this, before you mentioned it / showed a video of it. Are there any situations, where the jittering is really visible?
The jittering I talked about is supposed to happen when the camera is against the wall, just like in your video:
- https://streamable.com/6r6vm (@ second 20) and again (@ second 35)

Try to reproduce those situations in 19.0430 and you can see the jitter. It's as though the camera is being pushed back and forth by the collision and it results in jerky animation when the camera is supposed to be still.
Kiwi wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:07 pm
I also did a test-run at Botanical Garden, because I recognised some stuttering while driving at Skating Toys. The stuttering is also there when driving Botanical Garden. The stuttering feels nearly the same, as when I have vsync enabled.

I don't know if you can recognise it at the video I have captured (Also v-sync OFF):

https://streamable.com/6r6vm

I guess this has something to do with the internal 125 fps cap?

With older RVGL versions and v-sync OFF gameplay felt "smoother" for me, but maybe this is just a placebo effect.
I received the same feedback from Ciccio, and it's actually caused by the 125 fps cap. In your recorded video I see it's actually smooth, but on an actual monitor, the 125 cap can indeed cause the animations to stutter.

Also I heard that the "jitter" I talked about is not as important for players as the other camera collision issues at high frame rates. This means I've decided to restore the 250 fps cap, and put back the high fps fix from 19.0430. I'll give one last try to see if anything can be done about the "jitter", otherwise we'll have to live with it. :gremmecing:
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Huki » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:34 pm

In the latest release (19.1001) I updated the behavior again. The shift applied during camera collision is scaled (according to frame rate) along the Y axis - this is enough to fix the "low camera" issue. X and Z now remain unscaled. This prevents the stuttering shown in my video. I feel this is the best possible compromise. There were also other general stuttering fixes for narrow areas.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Kiwi » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:03 pm

Oh. So this is the reason why the camera feels weird again. I have no detailed examples for now. I just can remember, that at narrow areas the camera was not "rotating" (moving?) as usual. I didn't knew that you changed something in 19.1001, so i don't think that was an placebo effect. Is the stuttering/jitter really that a big issue, that the old camera behaviour must be touched?
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Kiwi » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:19 pm

OK, I have a good example. I have found a narrow area at a classic track, where the camera rotates that much, that the car will be shown from the front (!) instead of the back. So it's the same view, as using the "look back" button shortly and a big disadvantage while racing. I will make a video and post it later.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Huki » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:26 pm

To be clear, the fix for high fps involves scaling the camera movement (after collision impact), based on the frame rate. When scaled along all 3 axes it induces the ugly jitter. If we want to fix the "low camera" bug, it's enough to scale the Y axis. In this case, the "different camera position when driving beside a wall" could still happen. But I heard previously that this is not a big issue:
Kiwi wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:29 pm
ZipperZbieracz wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:20 pm
#2 the bendbent is bent visibly by too much
Yes, this "issue" is not really bad. I just wanted to bring it up, so Huki is aware of it. If it will stay the way it is now, I also have no problem with it. :)
Kiwi wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:19 pm
OK, I have a good example. I have found a narrow area at a classic track, where the camera rotates that much, that the car will be shown from the front (!) instead of the back. So it's the same view, as using the "look back" button shortly. I will make a video and post it later.
It's really that bad? That sounds surprising and definitely not intended. I'll wait to see the video.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Kiwi » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:34 pm

Huki wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:26 pm
It's really that bad? That sounds surprising and definitely not intended. I'll wait to see the video.
Look for yourself. I don't use any buttons to change view or look back. Everything is recorded with the normal view from behind the car.

SuperMarket 1: https://vimeo.com/364129961 (Beginning ~ Second 20)
Fiddlers on the Roof: https://vimeo.com/364129729 (Beginning ~ Second 15)
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Huki » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:19 am

Kiwi wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:34 pm
Huki wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:26 pm
It's really that bad? That sounds surprising and definitely not intended. I'll wait to see the video.
Look for yourself. I don't use any buttons to change view or look back. Everything is recorded with the normal view from behind the car.

SuperMarket 1: https://vimeo.com/364129961 (Beginning ~ Second 20)
Fiddlers on the Roof: https://vimeo.com/364129729 (Beginning ~ Second 15)
Can you try with these?

rvgl_19.1004a_test_win32.7z
rvgl_19.1004a_test_win64.7z
rvgl_19.1004a_test_linux.7z
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by ZipperZbieracz » Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:54 pm

I can confirm that in the 19.1001 version the Supermarket 1 issue has happened to me before, it happens like in ~15% of tries and this should not happen so often. On the other hand I experience something totally different in the narrow tunnel, something kinda cool. I also like the general behaviour of the camera right now, it's very dynamic and goes with the flow of the car.

The video (the camera doesn't turn around when driving forward and then turning and reversing, but stays in the same position and shows turns around after leaving the tunnel, I obviously didn't press the Reverse View button). I think this is quite easily reproduceable, much easier than the SuperMarket 1 camera-under-floor glitch. It's not too consistent though, if the turnaround is made in the middle of the tunnel, the camera does rotate with the car, if the car drives too close to the wall – the camera might not rotate with the car in the tunnel.

https://youtu.be/wJWkYZeCd1w

I think that none of the two issues/features above take place in the 19.1004 version, but it brings back a medium-sized jittering:

https://youtu.be/4EgowSsusZQ

Maybe it's the best thing to achieve. Or maybe there is a workaround possibility to force the camera to stop jittering (=trying to improve it's position near a wall) after no speed/direction buttons have been pressed for the last 2-3 seconds (so it wouldn't interfere with camera racing behaviour and cause racing issues) but would fix the camera jitter issue when the car is standing still next to a wall or something like that, I don't know. Up to you, Huki.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Huki » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:18 pm

ZipperZbieracz wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:54 pm
I think that none of the two issues/features above take place in the 19.1004 version, but it brings back a medium-sized jittering:
Yes, unfortunately. :/
ZipperZbieracz wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:54 pm
Maybe it's the best thing to achieve. Or maybe there is a workaround possibility to force the camera to stop jittering (=trying to improve it's position near a wall) after no speed/direction buttons have been pressed for the last 2-3 seconds (so it wouldn't interfere with camera racing behaviour and cause racing issues) but would fix the camera jitter issue when the car is standing still next to a wall or something like that, I don't know. Up to you, Huki.
A workaround like that (special case when car / camera is still) is worth exploring, yes.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Huki » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:22 pm

I've uploaded a new build, can you test this? It has the same fixes as 19.1004a, plus a special case when the car is not moving, to prevent the jitter.

rvgl_19.1006a_test_win32.7z
rvgl_19.1006a_test_win64.7z
rvgl_19.1006a_test_linux.7z

Kiwi wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:21 pm
Speaking only for me: The strange camera behaviour is much worse than the jittering, which is nearly not noticeable for me. So - again this is only my opinion: I am happy exactly as it is in the test build.
The behavior when racing is indeed more important, though the jitter gives such an ugly, unpolished vibe that I'd be glad to get rid of it too. ;) I think this will be a definitive fix for both issues, but I'll wait for your response.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by ZipperZbieracz » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:00 pm

I think none of the issues above exist, together with the camera jitter that appears when car is stationed near a wall. But I think I noticed something new. Difficult to achieve in real-time races, but still something:

https://youtu.be/RdHqfMfuZ5E

I think the camera "jitters" or "jumps" in the video because the camera mode/state switches between the normal "racing" mode and the "jitter-fix state for when the car is stationary" mode, causing the camera to jump when changing from reverse to forward when standing near a wall (because the car has 0 speed for a flicker of a second the camera mode switches for a short amount of time, causing the visible camera jump). Maybe adding some additional requirement for the "jitter-fix camera mode when car is not moving" such as to activate only if no gas/brake/reverse buttons were pressed for the last 0,25seconds or something like that, so the camera wouldn't switch when switching from reverse to forward (seems to happen only when reversing, and then switching to driving forward) when standing near a wall, so the jump would not appear.

Of course if this jump is caused by this, maybe it's caused by something else or maybe it has even appeared before, but we didn't notice. And if this is important.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Huki » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:16 pm

Yes, the jump happens when switching from "racing" to "stationary" mode. The "stationary" mode is activated when speed of the car is below 3mph (plus a few other tests: only in case of "wall" collision, and only when line of sight between car and camera is not obstructed - this condition helps with the HB3000 teleporter area).

I think we can safely increase the limit to 5mph. There could still be a light jump during your reverse-to-forward manoeuvre (at the exact point when the speed reduces below 5mph), but it's no big deal, and it will be almost unnoticeable when racing.
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Huki » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:06 pm

I've attempted a different fix, where the switch from "racing" to "stationary" mode is not abrupt but happens gradually based on the car speed. A speed above 5mph switches completely to "racing" behavior. What do you think about this?

rvgl_19.1008a_test_win32.7z
rvgl_19.1008a_test_win64.7z
rvgl_19.1008a_test_linux.7z
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by ZipperZbieracz » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:23 pm

I think I see no problems with the camera at all :)
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Re: [RVGL] Camera issues since 19.0819 update

Unread post by Kiwi » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:15 pm

Huki wrote: Can you try with these?

I've attempted a different fix, where the switch from "racing" to "stationary" mode is not abrupt but happens gradually based on the car speed. A speed above 5mph switches completely to "racing" behavior. What do you think about this?

rvgl_19.1008a_test_win32.7z
rvgl_19.1008a_test_win64.7z
rvgl_19.1008a_test_linux.7z
Perfect solution for me.
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